Last update 1/30/08

Who are these guys, anyway?  Who do they think they are?

Vader and CaverOne, together known as Double/Trouble, are both  recovering former members of The Colorado Grotto.  We ve been caving  in Colorado since 1986. 

A Word From
CaverOne
a.k.a. Steve, The Hawk, Trouble, Hellen Wheels, and several names not fit to print...

I ve known Vader since we were (yikes!) ten years old.  I ve been caving since one fateful day in 1986 when Vader called to say he was taking me to a cool place called Fulford Cave.  We got totally lost. 

We found our way out, obviously, and I decided to seek out more caves by going to where the cavers were:  The Colorado Grotto.    I was a member for several years, even going on a grotto trip to Spanish Cave.  A miserable cave.  I don’t care to go back. 

I was mostly out of caving for a few years, until Vader dragged my ass all over a damned mountain because he felt he had a good bead on Cave Creek Cavern.  Turns out his estimated coordinates, developed with the help of maps and several publications, were within an astounding 52 feet of the cave entrance.  I was bit by the exploration bug once again, and the idea for this website was born.  That was 2002.

Since, we ve repeated the feat. Vader found Fulton Cave by actually using aerial photographs. (See the Cool Links page for these.)  I ve explored dozens of other caves in Colorado, including Hubbards, Porcupine, Wilson,  and  Lime Creek.  Contrary to published reports, I ve never been on a diving trip to Spring Cave, although we did don the wetsuits and got as far as the first sump on our own, back in 1992.  Doing the backstroke in a cave in quarter-inch neoprene. Sweet.

In my spare time (what?) I also work in a lighting showroom, design T-shirts, run a fantasy football league, camp, and hike with Vader only on the condition that there are fish or caves at the end of it.  The dude is driven, I m tellin ya.

 I live in Denver with my beautiful wife and our three amazing children, Lexi, A.J., and Austin.

A word from
Vader
a.k.a. ManDan, The Model Thug... 

I am a former member of both the Front Range and the Colorado Grottos.    After going through the few caves that I could easily find (Fulford, Spring) I decided to try joining the Colorado and Front Range Grottos in order to find more caves.  I lasted there for about a year. 

Despite its many misleading directions,  the Lloyd Parris book Caves of Colorado provided a good base from which to start looking for caves.  This text, along with books and magazines published by various grottos allowed me to locate several caves.  Using geologic maps, USGS topographic maps and aerial views, I was

able to pinpoint the locations of caves like Cave Creek Cavern, Fulton, Twenty Pound Tick, and Premonition to within just a few hundred feet.  Once in the field, CaverOne proved invaluable in actually locating the cave entrances.

I live in Broomfield Colorado with my lovely wife and two daughters.  I am a former member of the Douglas County Search and Rescue Team, and a current member of the Hillbillies 4x4 Club.  Besides caving, my hobbies include hiking, canyoneering, arch hunting and geocaching.

THE ORIGINS OF CAVESR4ALL.COM

The groundwork for cavesr4all.com was laid about 1987.  After seeing all the popular caves that could be easily found, we wanted to see more, so the obvious decision was  to try and join a grotto. The logical assumption was that in order to find more caves, one needed to go to where the cavers were. We joined two Grottos, The Front Range Grotto and the Colorado Grotto. We were able to go along on a couple of trips, but when, after being grotto members for some time, our requests for information were flatly denied, something seemed amiss.  It could have been simply a result of running into the wrong people at the wrong time, but we both felt about as welcome as the Plague. In the end, the two of us decided to go about our caving business on our own. For the next 10 years or so we found caves using whatever clues we could dig up, when we went caving at all. We didn’t hold much of a grudge against the Grottos, we just figured that if they wanted to be unfriendly and cliquish, that was their prerogative. The problem came when they tried to silence us from publicizing cave location information.

About five years ago Dan came across a new hobby called Geocaching. The idea of this game is that one person hides a cache, usually consisting of a small container containing small trinkets, using a GPS device to record its location. The coordinates are then posted on an Internet web site and others will seek the cache using the coordinates to close in on the cache’s correct position.  Once found, items were removed and replaced with different items, and seekers could sign a logbook within the cache.  Later, the finds would be recorded on the Geocaching website, along with notes and comments about their adventures.  Dan had hidden a Geocache in a local, well known granite cave in July 2000.  When organized cavers found out that the cave coordinates were available for all to find their response was harsh.  The first correspondence we received from organized cavers about the problem they had with the cache was that other organized cavers had stolen the cache and they weren’t sure if they were going to return it. From our point of view, organized cavers had shut us out of caving once, we weren’t going to let it happen again. At the time we were receiving hate mail and threats about the posting of cave locations. The whole problem just continued to escalate.

Hate mail wasn’t the only type of mail we were getting. Requests for more information on caves and their locations from fellow Geocachers that were enjoying these posted caves came in with regularity.  Together we posted a Geocache in another well known cave.  Realizing that there was this much interest in caving online, and after much discussion, the idea for the web site was born around October of 2000. The existence of this website would accomplish two things. First, get the information to those who could use it and, second, sharing our cave information with other cavers would prompt them to share what they knew with us.  We could find new caves and then post their locations as well. The whole thing would just snowball and we would get new cave locations to check out. Over the next 24 months, several web pages were developed, designed, and re-designed. This new site, called cavesr4all, would include information on caving safely, caving softly, our own caving photos and about two dozen cave locations.

Meanwhile things on the Geocaching front came to a head when two of our caches were pulled from caves and burned in a campfire by a prominent grotto member at a caving event that was being hosted by the Colorado Grotto. The NSS Geocaching committee, set up to deal with the brewing conflicts, handled the situation poorly.  There was talk of reimbursing Dan for the caches that had been destroyed but it was only talk.  It took a local area caver stepping up and personally  reimbursing Dan for the caches to start to heal some of the hard feelings.  By this time the web site had been developed and posted.  CavesR4All.com went live in the wee hours of October 8, 2003.

The hate email poured in, some of it bordering on threatening.  Empty threats of legal action were tossed about, but the Federal law being brandished had been widely and wildly misinterpreted.  The hate and spite that arrived in our inbox almost daily was tiresome and a bore, but it soon dwindled.  More and more emails came in from people who had had the same experience with their local grottos that we did.  People ranging from Boy Scout troop leaders to frustrated grotto members were thanking us for having the nerve to do what no one else had been able to do: bring Colorado caving to the people who craved it.

After a year on the web, we wanted to find a new (read: affordable) internet service provider, and the site was in need of an overhaul.  It was unavailable until February of 2005, when it made its second debut.  The fervor was once again immediate and harsh, but we had seen all of this before.  Now cavesr4all.com features dozens of photos, safety and conservation information, and more than 140 cave locations and descriptions.

PARADIGM
It is important to understand that the creation of cavesr4all.com was not a lets stick it to them  proposition.  It was not created out of spite because of the events that took place regarding Geocaching, but rather because of the many requests we were getting from Geocachers about caves and their locations. We knew how difficult it was to come by cave locations due to our personal experiences with the Colorado grotto.

A few examples to demonstrate that we are not in this just to settle a score because of what happened with our Geocaches:

* More than twenty cave locations have been removed or were never published due to a variety of reasons: ongoing digs, caves of archeological or anthropological significance, particularly pristine caves, gated caves, and caves on private property.  If we were in this to upset Colorado cavers or to get attention, all this information certainly could have been published.  Several locations were withheld from publication at the request of the outside sources that provided them.  In the spirit of compromise, a number of cave locations were swapped out in exchange for other, more appropriate cave locations.

* Shortly after the site was published, we received a list from a contact of ours who is well known for his position on cave location information.  This list contained over 4,250 cave locations nation wide.  Publishing such a list, though high in shock value and spiteful towards many cavers, would have been irresponsible.

* Finally, to prove we have a conscience, cavesr4all had been receiving many requests for information from cavers in Utah.  For about a month we had a growing list of Utah caves up on the site.  It was an organized caver that brought to our attention the fact that a few of the caves we had listed were on private property.  It was quickly decided we would not be able to properly manage a list of Utah cave locations.  We needed to be there to verify some of the information and make sure that what we were posting was correct.  To the dismay of some of our contacts in Utah, the list was pulled.  We’ve set a high standard for ourselves regarding the accuracy of our information. We have been looking for one of our contacts in Utah to manage caversr4all/Utah for us, but nobody has yet stepped forward.  Cavesr4all could be coming soon to a State near you.

We have been asked, Why post cave locations, what are you getting out of this?  The answers are simple.  Foremost, we like to help other people out, especially cavers. We have had opportunities to go caving with other people that we would not have met if it wasnt for the site and their interest in it. And finally, for our own information. Due to like-minded cavers sharing their information with us we have been to caves we would not have found otherwise. Due to this sharing of information, we have been able to increase or own knowledge of cave locations many times over. This has provided us more recreational opportunities, and allowed us to compile an extensive (and still growing) database of Colorado caves. 

Secrecy, while effective from a conservation standpoint, sacrificed too much.  Countless potential cavers were shut out and turned away from this great sport as a result.  Secrecy is no longer the only answer.  Cavers need to learn how to deal with this issue from another angle. Education is key.  Teach people who are interested in caving how to do it the right way.   Cavesr4all strives to achieve this objective, but we also realize that our message of safety and conservation would be stronger if the full weight of the organized caving community were behind it.

IMPACT
As a result, we have heard from more than a dozen people who have used our site to find caves and to go caving.

We are aware of absolutely no unforeseen or unexpected damage to any cave listed on our site.

We are aware of not one caver being seriously injured or requiring a rescue operation as a result of visiting our site.

We have heard of no vandalism being perpetrated upon any cave gate, and we stress the importance of refraining from doing so.

We have encountered no private property issues, as we only publish caves which exist on public lands.

Aside from being called bad guys and a**holes and being told that someone may come looking for us, we’ve also been told by sources close to certain grottos that there are more cavers on your side than you think. 

As noted on the website, the sky did not fall, Colorado caves were NOT overrun by neophytes toting chisels and spraypaint, and Colorado caving is alive and well.  And better. 

We have avoided becoming what weve beheld, not getting dragged down into the mud-slinging.  We can hold our heads high, secure in the knowledge that we have done right.

CONCLUSION
Cavesr4all.com has not changed the world, but rather just a very small part of it.  We will be here for awhile.  We have five children between us, all under age 9.  When the time comes, each of them will be encouraged to carry the torch, er, rather, the one-watt LED headlamp, well into the future of Colorado caving.

Dan Vader Castellari
Steve CaverOne Hawkins

Cave safely.  Cave softly.  Cave on.